Learning to Dad with Tyler Ross 001 - Matt Carson

Speaker 1: This is learning to dad with Tyler Ross, but I do have a very particular set of skills. I'm going to have fun. You're going to have fun.

Speaker 2: All right. [00:00:30] This is learning to dad. I am Tyler Ross. My guest today is Matt Carson, Matt Madison, an author, former candidate for Virginia delegate. He was arrested at West Virginia university where he gained some notoriety for publicly busting up and then school president for his anti keg and anti partying rules. He was featured alongside Cooder from Dukes of hazard and the men of Rappahannock partially nude calendar that was put together to raise money for the county school athletic program. He's a founder of big teams, a web development company [00:01:00] for high school athletic programs, founder of Carson and machete. Accustom blazer company, founder of site works a web and software development company on the board of the Middleburg film festival. And one of my personal favorites. He's the co-founder of outsider labs, a think tank with multiple projects going on, including riot house.com, a site that hosts debates ranging from politics and sports to health and entertainment, and even a line of cocoon jewelry [00:01:30] and entrepreneur in the true sense. Uh, Matt Carson, you're a pretty interesting guy.

Speaker 3: Thank you very much. That was the best intro I've ever heard. Sounds like I'm doing something.

Speaker 2: I think he might be doing a thing or two. And I also left out that you're the co-founder of two children. Yeah. And your husband. I appreciate you having me here in your office in Warrington. The point of being here is really taking somebody like yourself, someone that I perceive to be, you know, a high achiever or somebody [00:02:00] with a, a willingness to put yourself out there, somebody that's an entrepreneur and trying to couple that with what it's like to be a parent and what, how those things cross pollinate each other. And, um, I'm just wanted to talk fatherhood with you and parenting. Um, so the first thing that I'll ask you just to get started, you just got back from a huge family road trip. Tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker 3: Yeah. We took a three weeks. I took three weeks off of work for the first time in my life to take [00:02:30] that much time off consecutively. And we, uh, drove out west and, and stayed at 11 national parks, 24 days on the road, 7,000 miles. And I wanted to do it for several reasons. One is to show the kids just how big this country is. Yeah. And how different it is. And they quickly grasp that concept that virtually every day, uh, it looks like a different planet. [00:03:00] You know, you go from Yellowstone to arches, to Moab, you know, these places are just so different than Virginia or Florida, or pretty much anything on the east coast. And plus just the experience of appreciating the national parks or the natural beauty, we banned iPads or technology for three weeks. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, just had an incredible, incredible time. Yeah.

Speaker 2: And so to contrast that with any other vacation that you've gone on, was this the most kind of in [00:03:30] depth kind of personal growth type of vacation versus anything?

Speaker 3: That's a good point. I absolutely was for me and the kids. I've driven cross-country several times. I'm not twenties. And, um, when you do something with your kids, you are almost doing it all over again. Yeah. Cause I got, I've seen old faithful. I've seen the Rockies many times, you know, you do it with kids. They are just blown away. I [00:04:00] mean, to them it's, you know, magical. So you're, re-experiencing that, um, and then the other big thing I told them ahead of the trip, I said, there's only two rules. One is no whining. And two is, if you tell me you're bored, I'm going to say good. Because being, being bored is good for your brain. It forces you to just, you know, let your mind wonder. So I was trying to really get that concept across to them. But you know, when you're in a car for eight hours through Kansas

Speaker 2: [00:04:30] Flat,

Speaker 3: You are going to be bored. Yeah. And that is good for your brain it's brain food in a way.

Speaker 2: And did, did you see them kind of evolve and change over the course of that three weeks and all of those experiences and their desire to have the iPads or their desire to not be bored or to be constantly stimulated? Did they, did you perceive some kind of meditative overlay or anything in them as you were on that trip?

Speaker 3: I absolutely did. [00:05:00] After day two, they quit talking about iPads in two days and just two days I got them just blank notepads with pens. Yeah. So if you're bored, you can draw a sketch, doodle journal, whatever you want to do. And they quickly adapted to getting enjoyment out of that. Yeah. The thing that made me really proud was we didn't stay in a hotel that many nights, most nights we were camping, the nights we were in a hotel, [00:05:30] they complained that they weren't camping their kids. So I said, okay, I've done my job. So

Speaker 2: Compare that to kind of the lifestyle you live on a day-to-day basis, you live in the country. Right. And, you know, have some acreage. And I mean, do they do the kids spend much time outside as it is now? Well, first, how old are your kids?

Speaker 3: My daughter's 11 and my son is seven.

Speaker 2: Okay. So they're in a generation that's seeking screen time. Absolutely. Yeah. So do you try to pair down at home and what do you do to do that? If you do?

Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:06:00] I treat the iPads like a TV, you know, growing up, we could only have so much TV time. I do the same with an iPad, you know, I think it's good. There's good things that come from the iPad, but we don't need to be on it all the time. I would rather them, there's a funny husband, wife discussion, but I'm in favor of stitches and bruises and cuts and the occasional broken bone probably have

Speaker 2: A couple of yourself.

Speaker 3: Exactly. You know, it's weird to say you're in favor of that, but [00:06:30] the way you get those is because you're living a little bit dangerously. You're climbing trees, you're running across rocks. You know what I mean? I think it's a natural tendency, especially for my wife and made his wives from what I understand to say, be careful. Yeah, whoa, whoa, you're running too fast. You know, down whatever I do the opposite, unless they're trying to wrestle an alligator, I stay out of it. You know? And I think a couple of things, one is it teaches that pain. [00:07:00] Isn't the end of the world. You know what I mean? Yeah. You're, you're going to get cut up. Like I told someone, uh, pain supposed to hurt, you know what I mean? But eventually it goes away and I think you become a little better for it each time you, um, but at the same time, I don't want to raise children that are, uh, skiddish and afraid of challenging themselves, physically and professionally.

Speaker 2: And so to, to create some [00:07:30] context here we live, uh, in Fauquier county, Virginia, you live in Colepepper

Speaker 3: County and called right on the border of AllCare call pepper. And

Speaker 2: So, uh, we live right in town. Uh, we live on basically a postage stamp lot and I'm desperately trying to get my family out on at least more land, if not further into the country. Uh, do you feel like that's an advantage to your kids to be grown up in the country versus being in the town of Warrenton or in, uh, uh, even a big city like New York or DC or anywhere else?

Speaker 3: [00:08:00] Yeah, I think there's advantages to all of them and disadvantages to, uh, the, we live on the Hazel river and you know, you can't see neighbors from our house and there's, you know, a lot of natural trouble to get into. I mean, not in a good way, but one downside is you don't have neighbors. And for kids, you know, meeting on the street, playing basketball with the knee, we don't have that. Yeah. You know, so there's advantages and disadvantages to both like in order [00:08:30] to, for kids to come over, you have to arrange that it has to be planned because you got to drive, you know, all the way out.

Speaker 2: So did you grow up in the same way that they're growing up now, do you think that influenced your decision to create an environment in which they grew up, that you were content with the way you did it or discontent and, and created a, a life kind of based on your experience?

Speaker 3: Probably. Yeah. That is how I grew up for the most part. You know, [00:09:00] we had a Creek, you know, getting muddy, climbing trees. I mean, you know, growing up in the eighties and previous generations, our parents didn't have to battle with Snapchat and musically and iPads. My tare got boring after a while. So

Speaker 2: We naturally were, I think, a physical cause you had to be, you know, to play outside, play with friends, you were doing that stuff. So I, I really want that for, and also just a relationship with nature. [00:09:30] Yeah. We don't want them to fear nature. I want them to, you know, enjoy it and be comfortable with it. And all the things I enjoy fishing floating for me, nature is kind of a place where I kind of get grounded again and kind of UN wind all of the, you know, wrapping around the axle that the day-to-day grind can create. And do you kind of see your kids react that way in nature as well? I come coming from school, I mean seven and 11. It's hard to think of them having real problems, but they [00:10:00] have true emotions and they have true relationships and things that are very, very real. Do you think that retreat back from school or, you know, events enhances their wellbeing?

Speaker 3: I think it does. Yeah. Having that outlet, you know, I put in trails through the woods, they have a tree house. Um, I think it does. Plus I got them every nature book imaginable with bug, bird identification, all that stuff, you know, picture books. Cause I, I want them to appreciate, [00:10:30] you know, these things.

Speaker 2: Do you see your contrast with your kids and your kids' friends that grow up in a more kind of urban environment and the way they, you know, either behave or treat other people or, or the issues that concern them as kids?

Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, one example recently is we have a, uh, I got the kids a hatchet and you know, I showed them how to use it and I let them, uh, my, my one rule was, you know, the obvious one, you don't use it [00:11:00] on other people that you can check that one off the list. But, uh, and then number two is don't use it on live trees. They know what a dead tree is, you know, use it on dead trees go nuts, go crazy. There's parts of the woods. I can tell you where there's not a branch, that's four feet and lower that exists. They literally just clear, I couldn't believe how much labor they put her into this. You can look right through the woods. Well, we had a family come out and, [00:11:30] um, uh, they live in Fairfax and Clayton. I ever heard him yell to the other kid. Let's go get the hatchet. Well, the mom freaked out. He, I mean, he may have said gun the way she reacted and I just call him. He said, he, you know, I can show him how to use it if you want. They're not going to new app. I mean, my God, that was the worst. Well, Clayton's back up the hatchet as he has a Swiss army knife, but they widdle with, you know, and then that was just as bad. So I realized, okay, [00:12:00] these are, you know, you, you do start to see the differences.

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. To speak about the balance between, you know, nature in the city. I'll, I'll flip into kind of balance between work and wife. Cause that's part of the goal of the conversation is to know that there's no real metric by which a father can measure their effectiveness as [00:12:30] they're doing it. I mean, the result is you have a kid that's not an ax murderer. You know, they don't take that hatchet and bury it into somebody else's

Speaker 3: Said, if you can keep your daughter off the pole. Yeah,

Speaker 2: Exactly good debt. But you don't know until the poll's has been put there and they say, no, thanks. I don't want to be on the poll. So let's, let's kind of start like kind of at the beginning, like where, where were you when you had your first kid in your professional life and how did that, you know, balance? [00:13:00] We talked about how we had no responsibilities and we'd, we'd spend our money. Like it was our money and buy things just for us. And now that, that has flipped to where we have other mouths to feed and people to take care of and, and people we care about. But when you had your first kid, uh, 11 years ago, where were you in your professional life? And can you talk a little bit about how that your perception of what was about to change and what actually changed and you know, the impact that [00:13:30] a kid had on your work-life balance?

Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. So when Emma was born, I had Siteworks big teams and a bunch of other experimental projects and the initial big change was I still work late. Um, I worked till like 2:00 AM. I just always naturally have that's when I'm most active is at night, you're late riser. Yeah. I [00:14:00] get up late and stay up late. And, uh, what used to happen before kids was we would do that at the office. After the phone stopped ringing, you know, we would grab a beer or some bourbon and stay up late and, and you know, white board and when myself and other partners had kids that ended. Yeah. Yeah. That was the most abrupt change [00:14:30] that late night, you know, white boarding, collaboration, little tipsy, you know, the free flow of I that ended then big teams got funded. The guys who own the DC sports teams invested in big teams and we moved the office, that office to Tyson's.

Speaker 3: And I really cause now we've hired more. We purchased another company. I really wanted those late night, not every night, but some you got to have those, then it became, all right, let's get a hotel [00:15:00] in. Tyson's got to let the wives, the kids know, you know, sports, you know, all the logistics that go into that, it becomes more difficult. It becomes a scheduled thing and that kind of loses the impromptu meeting. So that's a big one. So then he find yourself just brainstorming by yourself for better or worse. You know what I mean? I wouldn't exactly call that a storm.

Speaker 2: Yeah. You're bouncing ideas off your life. Now in the middle of the night, I got my, I got one. [00:15:30] Well, so did you see that, that change coming or was it a total shock as a new father? You know, you go from this improvise improvisation to, you know, the scheduled collaboration and

Speaker 3: You know yeah. That was abrupt. I didn't see it coming. I didn't think of that. You know, before you have a child, you try to think of everything, you know, the room, the right bad, you know, your wife's doing the research on the right stuff and all that, but yeah, that part [00:16:00] I didn't see coming.

Speaker 2: So would you, so it sounds like the improvisation of, or the ability to be a little bit more freewheeling prior to a kid and then having a kid kind of leads to, uh, maybe routines, you know, do you find what are any pros or cons associated with, you know, new routines and, you know, scheduling things versus being more kind of seat of your pants professionally or, you know, familiarly.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think I I've [00:16:30] noticed I've become more efficient and that's out of force. Yeah. Yeah. And because there is no alternative, right. You either become absentee or you become more efficient. And your,

Speaker 2: So is there any, uh, particular efficiencies that you've kind of put into practice since being a parent that has proved particularly effective for you? That another parent might say, Hey, I can apply that to my life. You know, I'm about to have a kid now that, you [00:17:00] know, Matt's shared this with me and others. I hear, you know, my life is going to be less kind of fluid and more rigid. Um, like any ideas that you can share there kind of hacked your efficiencies. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Um, one big one is communication. So it used to be that I would reply to emails all day, all night and write emails all day and all night. Now what I've done is I have a, uh, I use one [00:17:30] note, Microsoft, one note on my phone and my computer. It all sinks. And as I think of things, I'll, I can also pay paste images into it. So I'll use that as my notepad, anytime, as far as email goes, I reply to emails twice a day,

Speaker 2: Really bad. Like they call that batching,

Speaker 3: Right. Yeah. In the morning and then the evening. And that's it.

Speaker 2: And you don't find any, a change in as far as people's expectation of you [00:18:00] to yeah. But

Speaker 3: For better or worse to deal with it. Yeah,

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. You gotta have some

Speaker 3: Yeah. And people are going to get used to it, you know? Yeah. They're, they're forced to get used to it. How long have you

Speaker 2: Been practicing that? Uh, quite

Speaker 3: A while now there are breaks in the rule. Sure. Obvious. You know, certain things you just have to force to, to happen.

Speaker 2: Um, I'm trying to put batching in my, uh, phone calls and my emails to affect them, finding it a difficult [00:18:30] thing to acclimate myself to, because I'm so used to just responding on the fly all the time. Always having your phone, always having your computer, but you can waste an entire day just staring at your inbox and exactly getting pinged and pinging back

Speaker 3: And yeah. And when you don't have kids and you have all the time in the world, you're not, you're not dividing your time, then that is an option. Yeah. Like afterwards you start to, like, we talked about, you have to become more efficient and I think also you become you and there's also, it comes with age. I think it's [00:19:00] a mixture of age and experience. And having kids is you become more efficient with your decision-making more efficient with your tasks and better at deciding what ideas to chase and which one to let follow up.

Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Um, do you find that kind of spilling over with your kids, to some extent, like creating efficiencies with your relationships, with them, uh, routines or, uh, you know, habits that have formed based around [00:19:30] you and your home schedule and your work schedule and creating balance. And like maybe you find that you have kind of these set in stone, things that always get done. And it always the same time.

Speaker 3: I don't want the kids and I, I have to constantly force myself to say yes to your kids. Well, I'll give you an example. Like the other night I taught them chess. Yeah. And so, [00:20:00] you know, Clayton wants to play chess. Great. Yes. That's an easy, yes. Done the third game he wants to play. You're like in a row, you know what I mean? You're like now granted games of chess with the kid, don't take that 70 year old.

Speaker 2: You know, you're not, you're not, you're not one of the parents that lets your kid win.

Speaker 3: No, no, I do not let them win at anything. And uh, so by the third game, okay. I got some things to do. So you're kind of forcing your brain [00:20:30] to say shut up. Yeah. Really? What's another 30 minutes. Yeah. You

Speaker 2: Know, I mean so much to the kids

Speaker 3: And they're getting better each time and you know, so that you, you know, are throwing the baseball. I love throwing a baseball with them, play basketball with them, whatever. But after awhile, that part of your brain kind of automatically gets kicks in and says, okay, we got, we got stuff to do.

Speaker 2: So do you, what do you do to keep that in check? Like, do you have any, like, do you meditate or do you have any, uh, you know, kind of mantras you say [00:21:00] to yourself or anything that kind of helps you shut your brain off to its desire to just kind of spin out of control so you can be more present with your kids.

Speaker 3: I have tried meditation a thousand times in a thousand different ways on my bookshelf. I probably have 30 books on meditation. I've downloaded podcasts on it. I've I've gone to gurus and sat down and done. Really? Yeah. I just believe that in the, they, the PR pros would disagree with me cause they, you know, meditation should work. Right. I don't think it's [00:21:30] for me. I don't. And it's not from a lack of trying. I think what works for me is literally just brute force. Yeah. Just brute force that when, you know, you have a thought that your brain stays in and you just brute force a shut up. Yeah. You know what I mean? Or if I'm playing with the kids and the 50% of you after, you know, the second hour is still really enjoying it and the other 50% says, Hey, we got stuff. Do you just shut it up?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Shut up. That sounds like its own form of meditation.

Speaker 3: [00:22:00] Yeah. It may be. But that's the only thing that works for me is just brute force.

Speaker 2: That's funny. Yeah. You got, it's going back into routines. Do you have routines with your kids? Like when they brush their teeth every night or first thing in the morning you wake up and they wake up and you guys watch sports center together or anything that is kind of

Speaker 3: Frequently happening. No, I'm not a routine guy. My wife is he's big on routine and the importance of routine with kids, but now I'm not, uh, [00:22:30] I'm not, I'm more of a, by the seat of your pants.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So it sounds like you've managed to maintain that seat of your pants kind of approach, uh, despite the impact having kids does, but in the same breath, you've enacted a couple of, you know, uh, I'll, I'll call them hacks to try to create some efficiencies now that you have, you know, less time available to apply to your work. So I'll flip right back to this question here. Is there anything, uh, you know, [00:23:00] particularly silly that you do with your kids?

Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we all do the, the wrestle with them. Uh, I, I kind of flow with their imagination. You know what I mean? When they come up with a game or you're walking in the woods, you know, they'll pretend they spotted an animal and you get them to describe it to you, then I'll get them to draw it. And then, then you get wrapped up in that and you almost re remember what a real imagination was like. Yeah. Pablo Picasso said, we're all born artists. [00:23:30] We just forget how. Yeah. And I firmly believe that that's the truth. So that's another thing having kids do he really see the world through their eyes, which you still, we still have somewhere in our brain. It's just been beaten out of us through, you know, uh, kind of the institution of the world, but that's one. And then the other thing you reminded me of this really had a big effect is I've started involving them in things I'm doing. [00:24:00] And it hit me when they were talking to me about what their friends dads do. Yeah. Okay. And they literally looked at me and said, what do you do?

Speaker 3: I was like, oh wow. Because you know, they see all these weird, they'll see me in the basement, experimenting with fabrics one time. And the next time, you know, I'll be

Speaker 2: Packing a bag of human food. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3: Prime reason to it. And I know in their heads, there are probably some, [00:24:30] at some point gonna say, how does this possibly make money?

Speaker 2: I wonder where their imagination comes from. You know, you're creative and you're coming up with different things. And, um, you know, the, the, there they're two different things, creativity and imagination maybe, but, um, you know, one kind of falling inside the box of what humanity might accept and the other being what hasn't been beaten out of our children, through the socialization and into our kind of, you know, mediocre humanity. But as far as the imagination in [00:25:00] participating with that and your kids, is that something you're still actively allowing yourself to do? Or is that something that came naturally or is that something you have to consciously be aware of and, you know, tell your brain shut up. I'm doing that.

Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. I have to consciously be aware of it. Like if I'm working on a project and if it's not interesting to them, it's not, I don't force it, but I'll let them in on what's going on, like with the blazer project, uh, you know, and then they start asking questions, where did you get the fabric? And I walk them through that. [00:25:30] And in one hand, you start to realize it takes some of the mystery out of the world to them. And at the same time, it kind of reteaches you like, you know, when you, when you give a try to give a child a lesson, like don't be an. Yeah. Yeah. Party's reminding yourself, don't be an. I

Speaker 2: Find that to be a hundred percent true. I

Speaker 3: Mean, so it's like when they have a question about something they know how's that made, how does that work? You're always reminding yourself a lot of [00:26:00] times you have to go back and do research. I have no problem telling them. I don't know. That's one of the great things about the internet our parents didn't have was I can go look up, you know, how is plastic made? Where does plastic come from? Well, I should have asked that question a hundred times over the past 40 years. I never did look it up, have YouTube to look

Speaker 2: It up. Uh, w you know, that that's an opportunity to talk about your upbringing. Like, what, like, were you that creative, imaginary, you know, [00:26:30] kid growing up?

Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, one example is our parents took us to, uh, California and we, you know, did the Redwood forest and all that. Well, they went to a winery and I remember falling in love with this winery because they took us on a tour and I was 12 years old. And they're showing you how wine is made. Yeah. Wow. This is really cool. So I went home and saved my money, and I told my mom, I want to go buy a wine making kit, [00:27:00] you know, thanks for home at 12 years old. Yeah. She drove me to the store in Fairfax. And with my money, I bought this kit, bought the juice and I made wine in the basement and I made my own labels for it. And then they had people over and they tried the one. Now she later admitted it was got off. Sure. But at the time they were like, wow, this is

Speaker 2: Whatever it's rolled with it. And when

Speaker 3: I think back on that example and others all the time, that it's an easy reaction as a parent [00:27:30] to say, no, it's almost like the first thing, like when a kid has to do no, no, no. But if I stop, which is, again, this is brute force. And then just say, why not? Yeah. Why not?

Speaker 2: What do you, what do you think it is that you could share about your ability to do that, to be mindful enough to, you know, however you do it to shut it down. Because like you said, you've read tons of books and watch videos and even seen gurus. And, and you've decided that the way that's best for [00:28:00] you is just brute force that had to be inexperienced to get to that point, to actually be conscious enough to know that it is brute force. That works for me in, in, you know, can you elaborate on that a little bit? Is there anything that you could suggest that a parent do that's struggling with, you know, shutting off their monkey mind so that they can be more present with their kids?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I live by the mantra of [inaudible] in terms of professional, in terms of businesses [00:28:30] of why not, let's try it. Yeah. You know, so try to apply that to my personal life, which is just taking a beat before you say something, you know, it takes discipline. Yeah. And your relationship, particularly with your kids and your wife and friends, because you start to realize at some point that everything you talk about routine, that your life becomes a routine. Get up, take a shower, [00:29:00] get your coffee, go to work, come home, do X, whatever, have dinner, watch TV, go to bed. Yeah. Do it all over again. Instead of break that up with whatever it is.

Speaker 3: I heard a talk one time where a guy said he devoted his first project was to read a book a month. Yeah. Okay. Then the second year he wanted to learn a new skill a year. So he continued to read a [00:29:30] book a month, but he added on a new skill a year. So his first one was harmonic or whatever. And I came away from that like, wow. You know that. So, so simple. But what a difference it makes. Yeah. So I've always been a reader, but there was no, I don't want to say you have to put discipline behind it and make a schedule and a calendar. It's just try, you know what I mean? This isn't exactly answering your question, but is becoming more conscious of what you do day by [00:30:00] day, week by week. Yeah. And I think as a parent, having kids that you run across a baby picture every now and then.

Speaker 3: And what does every grandparent tell you? Life goes by fast, you're going to turn around one day and they're going to be adults and you're going to be an old man. Yeah. You hear that over and over. I don't think it starts to sink in for a while. You almost have to say it to yourself to say, you know, it's, it's one question. What do I want to get [00:30:30] out of life? What is another question to say, what, what do I need to do to shake things up? Yeah. Cause otherwise this routine I'm going to keep doing, I'm going to turn around. I'm 65 years old, 75 years old, you know?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Jesse Itzler um, from Marquis jets and he talks about his life resume all the time and interesting person to listen to living with a seal.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah,

Speaker 2: Exactly. David Goggins. Yeah. Awesome dude. But he talks about a routine constantly and [00:31:00] then how it routine is great, but it can become a rut. And so you have to bust up that routine every now and again, so that you feel like you can slow time down because having a three-year-old four year old, uh, I feel like every time I blink I'm time traveling to seeing my kid, uh, that much older than I did when I blanked last time. Um, and it it's, it's a wild experience to watch them trying to come up with ways to slow it down. And it's part of, what's motivated me to, you know, have a conversation like [00:31:30] this. So to continue on, how would you say your parenting style might be different than maybe your wife's? How do they compare and contrast, or you're slowing everything down and saying yes to everything and, you know, go hurt yourself, go bruise yourself, you know, learn from experience and in these things and you know, how do they compliment each other and how are they kind of at odds?

Speaker 3: Yeah. Other than the example, you know, the, um, [00:32:00] the natural, you know, want to say slow down, hold on. Don't do that. You'll hurt yourself. We're pretty similar in the, uh, you know, on the other side, like the last minute I had Friday, let's go camping, you know, type D the other side. We're pretty similar. Thankfully that, yeah. The, the why not attitude, you know, driving cross country for three weeks, um, kind of solidified [00:32:30] that. Did you,

Speaker 2: And you kind of grow that together or were you kind of already that way and that's what drew you to this life in the first place? I think you're

Speaker 3: Right. I think we're both a little bit wild. Yeah. So work works out in that respect. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Do you, so being a little wild, do you see you or your kids, moms in your kids, like what kind of qualities do you see that you have, that your kids have that you like, or, you know, feel like you got to kind of [00:33:00] work out of them because they didn't treat you right. Or they did treat you, right?

Speaker 3: Yeah. No, absolutely. And in one hand it scares the hell out of you. I took him down to alligator facility in Florida and they're literally 12, 14 foot alligators that they're feeding chickens to. Yeah. And, uh, Clayton immediately asked, how do I get down there? Right. Right. I said, no, no, no, no. We stand [00:33:30] here behind this fence and wants it. He got mad. I mean really mad at me. And it occurred to me that this whole time I'm talking up this, you know, all day, we're gonna go see these alligators. He's like, sweet. That's good. You know what I mean? So there's part of him that, where you see yourself like, oh. Yeah. We're in for a world of adventure with this one.

Speaker 2: So your perspective of yourself so far has kind of been, you know, you're an enabler [00:34:00] say, yes, let's do this. Let's work on it together. Do you think if you asked your kids the same question that they would say, oh man, dad is all about doing whatever we want to do because we want to experiment and go do it and try it. Or would they say he's a total buzzkill?

Speaker 3: That's a great question. I try that. That's a great question. I think it depends on the day. You know how kids are. Oh no, you don't let us do anything another day. I'd be like, well, that's awesome.

Speaker 2: Oh, that's a, that's a great [00:34:30] opportunity to ask you about a punishment. There are certainly times that they did something that you would have done that you know, that you got punished for. And can you talk about maybe the way that you were punished by your parents for doing something and if you were punished at all in the way that that might have influenced how you punish your kids, um, if punish is even the right word, maybe it's, uh, teach them something versus punishing them. Okay.

Speaker 3: Yeah. What I try [00:35:00] to do is that the kind of try that again. Thing, like for instance, you know, less than one in life, don't be an. You know, life becomes a lot easier if you're not an, but when they're being an, then, uh, I, I try to pay, let's try that again, buddy. Yeah. You know what I mean? That doesn't work. Just try, try that. And then the easy go-to is you take things away. Every parent, [00:35:30] you take things away, you know, but then some kids are just tough and that doesn't have an effect. You know,

Speaker 2: You, you embarrassed by anything you've tried to do to punish your kids. Oh, well

Speaker 3: That's a good one. Uh, embarrassed. I'll have to think on that one or

Speaker 2: Like they hadn't done it or

Speaker 3: Yeah, actually. Yeah. So, you know, when you pull your car in a parking lot and the kids just swing the doors open. Yeah. And [00:36:00] he tried it, look, there's a car, you know, whatever Clayton just was mad and swung the door open and nailed another car. Yeah. And I instantly reacted, there was no thought

Speaker 2: Behind it. No beats that we talked about.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I really yelled, you know? Yeah. And then he starts tearing up and then you're like, oh. Yeah. You know? So I just had a talk with him, like, look, buddy, I'm sorry. I didn't. That was just a reaction, you know, but I've told you a hundred times, like just now you see what happened, there's a dent in his car. So I write a [00:36:30] note and put it on that E a windshield wiper. And the dude called like two days later and, uh, Clayton was there thankfully. So he heard the, you know, my side of the conversation and the dealer was cool. He was like, man, that's an old truck. I'm not worried about it. You know? Thanks for the note. But anyway, it's like a moment like that, that you do want to show the kids, you do the right thing. Yeah. But yeah, the reaction was bad. I think everyone does that at times. And you just have to kind [00:37:00] of remind yourself, like, you know, chill out there. They did not do that on purpose. Yeah. You know, they're a kid.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It kind of comes down to that a lot. You know, it's like bite your tongue, their kid, but they're capable of so much more than we give them credit for, I think is I find a lot of what I do is convincing myself to just get out of the way and let them do stuff. Um, but uh, to stay on that topic, do you recall being, [00:37:30] do you have any vivid memories of being punished yourself? Like anything that impacted you as a kid that your parents did, that you went, wow. I was really out of line and I can't believe they behave that way. Or you had a regular reaction to the way that they tried to discipline you or, you know, kind of control your behavior.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Other than, you know, the, uh, standard way to your dad gets home. That is kind of the worst. [00:38:00] Thank you. Because then you're mulling it over. You know what I mean? It's not there when dad gets home, anything awful happens. But that time period in between that moment and he's like, oh,

Speaker 2: Enough to dissuade

Speaker 3: You to do it again. Actually those words.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, gosh. So what are some real

Speaker 3: Click on the flip side? Yeah. Uh, Heather called [00:38:30] me not too long ago. I can't remember what Clayton did, but she said, I told him, wait until your dad home. Right. So then I know I'm on the other side of this. And I'm like, well, whatever she said, didn't even sound that bad to me. But he was like, well, I just want me to perform.

Speaker 2: Sometimes you have to, uh, like conjure anger or a reason to discipline your kids because you looking at your wife gone. I had no problem with that. What they did was just [00:39:00] fine. I don't care that they dumped out all the flour into the dishwasher.

Speaker 3: You're also, you're going through all this. Cause you're like, well, if I don't say something, then that wait till your dad gets home. He's got a new meeting. Next time I got home and an app. Yeah. It's funny being on the other side of that. No,

Speaker 2: Gosh. So disciplining your kid. I feel like it's the intent behind it is to, you know, kind of direct their behavior. Um, you know, to make them a [00:39:30] decent human, don't be an. Yeah. So like, what do you feel like is your role as a dad to shape that? Like how do you shape that? And you know, what do you do as a father to help prepare your kids for life so that they're not shocked by it. And when they enter the world economy or the job market or relationships with somebody that they love or fall out of love with, or friends [00:40:00] that, you know, their friendships go sideways, like how do you teach your kids to, you know, kind of, how do you prepare your kids for life?

Speaker 3: Yeah. That's a great one. What's your approach? I think one that will, will constantly wrestle with and fine tune for probably the rest of our lives. You know what I mean, as those questions evolve and, and they get older, th th this is cliche, but the one is by example. [00:40:30] And I think that's, uh, another great thing having kids does to you is you realize that there are, there's another little human watching, how you not only treat the world, but move around it and treat other people, which has a very positive effect on you in a lot of ways, you know, just from overreacting and traffic. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of stopped doing that. You know what I mean? Because [00:41:00] there's little people in the backseat watching how you interact with the world, you kind of take a beat on things, you know, and that's what I try to teach them is just take a breath and think about how you want to react or, uh, uh, it didn't, the other thing is I've gotten in the habit of, you know, every now and then we'll have a movie night and I'll bring out an old movie, you know, E T Goonies, yeah.

Speaker 3: Field of dreams. And it occurred to me that the movie, a lot of the movies [00:41:30] we grew up with were really incredible. Now that you're rewatching them with the kids in the ways that a, the kids are super independent and these movies. Right. You think about ITI. Yeah. The kids are literally saving the alien against the government and their own parents. Right. You know what I mean? It Goonies, they discover, you know, th they're taking on other adults, you know what I mean? Not that that's the message that much, but that kids have [00:42:00] power. You have your own mind, your own abilities, you know what I mean? Uh, you started realizing that a lot of those 80 movies were pretty awesome

Speaker 2: And you think there's a generational shift that's happening or has already happened that kids of a generation, you know, younger than you are, you're going to have a challenge on account of outside influences, you know, with movies like that, you know, you've got, you know, enabling factors that kind of propel your kids towards the direction you're trying to create [00:42:30] anyway. So whereas now maybe the movies are different and the perception of what a kid and parent relationship is like, is more coddling. Do you want to comment on, on that?

Speaker 3: Yeah. That's another one I have to self-check myself on all the time. So my daughter's entering middle school and, you know, the bullying and all this starts, and he talked to other parents and I hear other parents say, you know, the bullying thing, you instantly [00:43:00] want to go talk to the other parents. Yeah. You know what I mean? And, uh, I don't, I take a step back from that and say, man, bullying was something we dealt with is awful. Whatever. You'd never want your kids to be a bullied, do everything in your power to make that. But they're going to deal with bullies in life, elementary school, all through school, college, life, business, whatever. Right. So instead of taking on the bully, I try to take on here's how you act. [00:43:30] Here's how you, you know what I mean? Yeah. Instead of I'm going to try to make the world as soft and peaceful as I can for you, which again, you look at a lot of modern movies for kids. That's how they are. You know what I mean? Then you look at eighties movies and it's like, nah, world's pretty freaking rough, but we're going to deal with it. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2: Mom's, babysitter's dead. My

Speaker 3: Baby's dead. Exactly. Yeah. Oh. There's an alien we're trying to save. And the federal government is trying to, you know, Ram our house down at it, you know? So, [00:44:00] uh, yeah. It's that I take a different approach or try to,

Speaker 2: Oh, what do you recall being bullied at all? Or even bullying yourself? Uh, bullying.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Thankfully I can honestly say I never bullied big believer on just treating everyone with kindness. I try to do that with my kids as much as I can. You know, you have no idea what someone else is going through, but I clearly remember being bullied. I read a bus to school. It was mainly because of where I lived, you know, outside of town, [00:44:30] there was mainly high schoolers. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, so I, I clearly remember being bullied. And

Speaker 2: How'd you manage that?

Speaker 3: You know, I do remember being younger and dreading the ride to school. Yeah. Uh, especially, you know, one year. And I think I kind of developed a sense of humor about it. Like there's different mechanisms, I guess you can, you either retreat, you know, go inside yourself, whatever. So I would kind of do outrageous things and, [00:45:00] you know, get people laughing and over the year, that kind of softened things up a bit. And yeah. As a parent, you hope your kid never goes through that. But at the same time, I don't know if you were bullied or not. I remember that time being bullying, bullying. Yeah. You, you did co come up with defenses against it or, you know, it sucks. There's no two ways about it, but then there's parts of life that suck. I don't want to minimize bullying in any way, but yeah. Know

Speaker 2: For, for us, the experience that we can relate on is that when [00:45:30] we were bullied, we were bullied. I recall being bullied on the bus. I recall being bullied in the changing room, you know, elementary and middle school, but we never got bullied via email or via Facebook or via social media. Um, do you have any experience with that or do your kids have your kids confided in you that there are things that people say to them online that don't resonate with them in a positive way? Things that are even, you know, things [00:46:00] that could be classified as bullying and if so, or even if not, how would you manage that? If you can put yourself in a space that you could imagine that that's happening.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I have, I have come across that with my daughter. Yeah. And, uh, we're social media and the way I, I handled it, whether it was right or wrong, I don't know. But I just said, um, look, here's the deal. Not everyone's going to like you, [00:46:30] that that's just a fact of life. We need to stop this idea that everyone needs to like, you know what I mean? There, there are out there. Yeah. And the best thing you can do is just avoid them first off. Don't get involved in this conversation. That's not going to go anywhere positive. I can promise you that. There's not a lot I know in this world, but like mark Twain said, when you argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 3: [00:47:00] I know you're not going to, you're not going to win there. So

Speaker 2: Do you feel like that's kind of, you know, uh, absorbed into your daughter's mind and she's kinda managed the experience in a productive?

Speaker 3: I think it has. I think she's, uh, those conversations. So, you know, when you talk to your kids, you never know what it's going to take and what's not. But I think that one did, because she realized with her other friends that continue in that world, that's not any well. And then they end up complaining [00:47:30] to her about it. Well, she's already injected herself from those conversations in that environment. And you know, I think she's learning and quickly in the real world that, yeah, you're not going to fix it.

Speaker 2: Do you feel like you've cultivated, uh, in an environment of trust with your kids where they come to you when they're experiencing things or do you feel like they might be trying to manage experiences on their own? And you know, if so, how do you feel about that? Are you proud [00:48:00] of them that they're, you know, trying to take something on yourself or do you feel like you're left out because you feel like you have value to add?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it was a mixture of both. I think I have, and I try to constantly cultivate that environment where they can come to me with anything. Yeah. That, uh, the story of, of, uh, I'm sure we've all heard it. This guy was on the radio for awhile who told his daughter that, uh, she could call him any time. She doesn't want her getting in a car with somebody who's drinking or when she's been drinking. I don't care where you are. [00:48:30] I don't care. What time of night it is. You call me, I will come get you. There will be no questions asked. I remember hearing this. And I was like, that's brilliant. Right? And he said, the first time it happened, it was 3:00 AM. And she was over two hours away and he gets the call and he's like, well. Well, of course he puts his pants on, oh, excuse me, drives two hours, whatever.

Speaker 3: And uh, he said it was the most quiet two hour ride home. They didn't say a word. You know, he said he kept his word. He never brought it up again, never got [00:49:00] mad at her, but neither said anything to each other, that two hour ride home and looking back on it. He was like, that was the greatest thing he could have, you know, done. I'm not having that conversation with him yet, thankfully, but I try to have that type of conversation. It does not matter what it is. And then I made the mistake. One time I was saying, you wouldn't believe the I've been through, like what crap I got, no, I got caught with an example, but yeah, [00:49:30] I tried to, but I know it's just a fact of life that there are other things they're dealing with. I'm sure that they keep to themselves and deal with it on their hand at the same time, be proud of that. And you just hope they do it well.

Speaker 2: So being, being proud of that, um, are there any milestones that you've experienced as a father that you're particularly proud of? Anything that, you know, you didn't expect of yourself where you kind of exceeded your own expectations and said, you know, [00:50:00] if I could just tap into that more or do that more, or I feel like what, the way I just behaved or the way I didn't behave, you know, this is a moment in my kid's life that I feel like it just made a positive impact on

Speaker 3: Yeah. One is I think a benefit of this area and a lot of areas is there are all kinds of people with all kinds of backgrounds [00:50:30] and all kinds of, uh, economic situations, right. So, you know, where they went to school the same way we went to school with wealthy middle-class and you know, not doing, family's not doing well financially. Yeah. And if you can accept all of that and be comfortable with, you know, all types of people and relate to all types of people [00:51:00] and enjoy all types of people, then I think you're going to have a pretty good life. You know? So not the area we live in does a good job of that for us. But I think we have to, uh, there are conversations that have come up with, uh, you know, one family, they had a play date with, uh, the family as, you know, a broken down car in the driveway.

Speaker 3: The, uh, they don't have doors in their house. It's [00:51:30] literally curtains over the doors and they had a birthday party for their daughter. Yeah. And, um, it was very simple, you know, there wasn't, you know, but they've also been our house for birthday parties. And, uh, my daughter had a conversation with me about that. They don't, they don't have much. Yeah. It was a good opportunity to have that discussion about that. Hey, that doesn't matter. They're happy. They're a family. They have a roof over their head, what they have [00:52:00] or don't have doesn't matter. And for her to really understand that was like, okay, great. I guess that's an important one. Yeah. There are conversations you almost forget to have with your kids, you know, but yeah. Things like that. That,

Speaker 2: Yeah. That's an important one to have to, I'd like, I'd like to ask you about education just to totally shift gears here for a second. Um, like how do you in a world of accelerating change where things [00:52:30] are, you know, take a computer science degree, you know, you're being a web developer among other things. Um, you can appreciate the idea that the things that you might have learned in school, uh, probably 99% of them don't apply to what you do anymore, despite being in the same field. Um, so, uh, what are the things that kind of go through your head when you're thinking about your seven year old and 11 year old and, and, and, and education public or private education college, [00:53:00] like how do you put your kids in a position to succeed in? What's arguably a system that isn't keeping up with change.

Speaker 3: So I want them to always be curious. I think that's the biggest secret, as long as you're always curious and willing to learn. Uh, I read a thesis in college called the filing Farnsworth principle follow Farnsworth, invented the television. He lived on a farm [00:53:30] in the Midwest, no indication that he had any technical abilities. Yeah. They had no education engineering, none of this. And he invents the TV literally in his barn. Okay. The Le the, the patent and all that got in, it was later stolen by RCA. That's a long story, but no one knows the name phylo Farnsworth. That's why I call it the filing Farnsworth principle, same thing applies to the Wright brothers. Right, right. Yeah. Again, you know, bike shop, no engineering degree. They [00:54:00] weren't professors didn't go to college who would think that they would solve flight that for a thousand years, man has tried to who think that these two yeah.

Speaker 3: Would do that, you know, Dayton, Iowa of all places. Uh, I'm sorry. Uh, uh, Dayton, Ohio, right? Yeah. Right. Uh, but anyway, the, the, the whole idea is if you look at the people that do extraordinary things at the end of the day, it didn't have a lot to do with where they went to school, where [00:54:30] they were raised, uh, the phylo Farnsworth principle is that most of them believe it or not, did not come from cities or high-level educations. Right. It came from three things in my mind, motivation, grit, and a curious nature. Yeah. If you can put those three things together, it's going to be awesome. You know?

Speaker 2: So do you feel like, as a parent, you can help cultivate those things, help create a fertile environment that enhances those aspects, [00:55:00] maybe your idea of saying yes to as much as you can and shutting it off and being present is part of that. Yeah.

Speaker 3: I've, I mean, I really try to, but, you know, motivation comes from within, um, and grit and curate curiosity. Um, I really try my best to do that by saying, I don't know if they have questions doing the research together so that [00:55:30] they see, you know, how that part, but like we talked about earlier involving them in what I'm doing, you know, the different projects I brought my 3d printer home so they can see how I develop a certain thing from beginning to end and then showed them how to just kind of show them the kind of open the doors to the world a little bit. Yeah. You know, so it's not a big mystery because it's easy to just say things are a mystery. Like the other day I took apart a microwave, [00:56:00] uh, with them because I was sitting there and using the microwave and I was like, I don't know how this thing operates. You know? So I looked online, bought a used micro microwave, you know, and brought it home and took it apart with them. And then each time we would look at the beans. So I try, you know, to do these things, but you don't know, you don't know if you know it'll and then the grit thing, the biggest one is to not be afraid of failure. Yeah. In a weird way. Almost embrace it.

Speaker 2: [00:56:30] Oh yeah. Absolutely. People talk about if you're going to fail, fail fast. Yeah. Everybody knows about Thomas Edison, you know, and I didn't fail 10,000 times. I just had 10,000 ways that you don't make a light bulb. Exactly. So do you think that that's something that's innate or do you think that you can kind of socialize your kids into being gritty and curious.

Speaker 3: I don't know. That's a great question. I don't know. I don't know, because you know, you look at the, these people that, [00:57:00] uh, I mean, you can, you can pick an example out of a hat and then go read the biography and try to take clues from it. Like, you know, follow foreigns versus dad, for instance, he was a farmer. Yeah. There was no indication there. You know, Steve jobs, his dad, uh, bill gates, his dad was a dentist. You know, you don't really know what, uh, how much I, you, I guess you just try your best to show them that there's nothing wrong with being embarrassed.

Speaker 2: [inaudible] [00:57:30] kind of loop to tie it back into education. I think about a story that I'm told, um, well, to create some contacts, you look at the public education system. It's big brick buildings with bells that is so reminiscent of like the industrial time. It's, it's a factory that is built on, you know, Henry Ford's principle and it's crank everything out of this same hole. Whereas one kid, the story goes constantly, [00:58:00] was getting out of their seat and twirling around the room. And the teacher, you know, basically diagnosed the kid is not being, you know, teachable and that they needed to seek special treatment while that child's song was dance. And they ultimately ended up becoming this incredible high level dancer, but the environment that they were in was not supportive of that, that they were trying to, you know, I, I, [00:58:30] I fear using the term, but they, they, you know, suppressing this kid's creativity by trying to fit them all through the same holes.

Speaker 2: So do you find that in educating your children, that there pluses and minuses and the systems that you've put them in, and do you feel that the parent's role is to kind of unwind some of it, but encourage others or is it to, you know, find it an environment that's most supportive, you know, [00:59:00] to, to, uh, allow a kid to follow their bliss and, you know, is it to identify the bliss or is it to listen to your kid? Like how, like, how are you educating your kids and, and what, what are you doing to kind of monitor their experience? Yeah,

Speaker 3: That's a great question and a great way to put it caveat real quick. Bill gates, his dad might've been a lawyer, but I don't remember exactly, but whatever Google fact checking [00:59:30] the, uh, yeah. I wonder that all the time. So the way I look at it is for me, one of the great things school did was socialization. You're around all kinds of different people. The second is the foundation, right? The foundation for learning, because you're going to learn all kinds of different things throughout school. You kinda, you get a foundation on a lot, you know, reading, writing the [01:00:00] math and all that. And then other things kind of spark things, right? Like the art classes and plus the, they are around all kinds of teachers with all kinds of different backgrounds and all kinds of interests. So we all have the teacher that could care less. I mean, they're, they're, you know, watch the clock until the day ends, whatever, but then you have the teachers that are curious and passionate, you [01:00:30] know what I mean? I think it takes all kinds and that kind of gives a rounded foundation for them. And then as far as the sparks, my goal is to, uh, encourage them to follow that whatever it is. And it could be multiple things, but, you know, you just do

Speaker 2: Very aware of what they're doing, cause they might not verbalize that to you now. So I'm going to jump into, I'm not going to call it a lightning round yet, but we'll have some quick ones. So the [01:01:00] first thing, is there anything on your not to do list as a father?

Speaker 3: I can't think of anything. Like, do you mean like activity wise,

Speaker 2: Uh, in the sense of, you know, the way you treat your kid or the way you react to your child or, uh, you know, if, if another parent is listening, you know, what is something that you would say as a dad don't ever do this?

Speaker 3: Oh boy. Uh, yeah, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. [01:01:30] I'll noodle on that for a second.

Speaker 2: Fair enough. What kind of father do you want to be remembered as by your children

Speaker 3: Involved?

Speaker 2: I think that's a wonderful answer. Is there a TV dad that you like?

Speaker 3: Uh, well before recently I would've said bill Cosby. Well, we can still look good. DV dad, I guess we use a good TV. Uh, and what's the one, uh, the show [01:02:00] with Michael J. Fox. Uh, it was that family ties. Yes.

Speaker 2: We're just barely a gender. Like just [inaudible]

Speaker 3: I always liked him because you know, he's got kids that are very different and he kind of lets them be them and you or

Speaker 2: Your kids totally different.

Speaker 3: Uh, yeah. I'm starting to see absolutely. It

Speaker 2: Has one like you in one, like your wife

Speaker 3: Both have pieces of us. Yeah. The EEC come out, [01:02:30] but yeah, Clayton's like me, which is, you know, like how act for act for she first asked questions and he started to realize that that's good in a lot of ways, but in some ways we got to work on that.

Speaker 2: All right. So, um, as a father, what's a gift that you would give to a new dad,

Speaker 3: Physical gift.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Or, you know, a lesson [01:03:00] or a piece of advice, or even a physical gift that a new dad might find some value in because they are totally green and are about to have that impact.

Speaker 3: Other than the bottle of Woodford reserves. If money was no object, this is not going to sound a little bit cheesy, but a good wide chair. Yeah. Um, you know, we all should, and, you know, read [01:03:30] to our children, you know, look things up with them, whatever. I don't mean a couch, but if you have a comfortable chair with arms that's wide, then the kids can sit on either end and they can sit up on the arm. However they want to do lean against you. You know that I have one of those and that's one of the greater, I think more time is spent in that one place, in any other single.

Speaker 2: And I think that's just wonderful. So in the event that this recording lasts forever, can you think of something that you feel like [01:04:00] your kids, kids, kids, kids, kids, kids, kids. You'd like to say to them that would make them a good parent, a good husband, a good brother. A good person.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Other than the big one and just take a beat before you react or speak, you know, that's the big one I keep reminding myself of and then the other one has let them be kids.

Speaker 2: Awesome. What are two or three things that you think would make up the super dead?

Speaker 3: [01:04:30] Uh, super dad would be, uh, yeah, the obvious, you know, the, the big one to me is again, let them be kids and let yourself be reminded of what it was like to be a kid.

Speaker 2: Uh, what's an attribute of yours as a father that you're particularly proud of

Speaker 3: The, uh, the fostering creativity.

Speaker 2: How do you expect your role as a father of seven year old and 11 year old [01:05:00] to evolve over the time where, you know, they basically aren't relying on you anymore.

Speaker 3: Yeah. My dad keeps reminding me, I'm going to get dumber and dumber.

Speaker 2: It's all,

Speaker 3: You know, I mean, we all know that when you're a teenager, our parents know nothing. You know what I mean? All they're doing in life is holding you back. If they [01:05:30] would just get out of the way and let you ask the world, things would be fine. Yeah. Okay. I know that didn't answer the question, but I know it's going to evolve and it scares me because I'm just going to get dumber and dumber. And again, they're going to see me as the guy that is holding them back. That's the thing I hear a lot of parents say is the hardest thing is knowing how much rope to give them. Yeah. That's the thing you will constantly wrestle with until they're out of the house. And I can see that, especially when they get their own cars, when they, when they, [01:06:00] when they're driving. Cause now you can have those conversations with your parents and other parents and know that they were scared to death. Every time you left the house in the car.

Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, absolutely. A hundred

Speaker 3: Percent. That's the part, um, what you have to it's the same, you know, you had to let them go and give them rope. Now

Speaker 2: There, there's definitely something that there's a disconnect between people that have kids and people that don't have kids, there's a level on which [01:06:30] you just cannot relate anymore to a person that doesn't have children. And that's a great example of one that a non-parent might say they're 16. They can drive. They're responsible, whatever. Do you think you will ever not be scared to death exactly. With your kids? No.

Speaker 3: No. Yeah, exactly. No.

Speaker 2: What's the greatest hope you have for your children.

Speaker 3: I heard, uh, John Lennon [01:07:00] had a class project which was to go home. He was in elementary school, go home and write down what you want to be when you grow up. And he went back to school and wrote down one word on the piece of paper, which was happy. And the teacher gave him a failing grade and said, you don't understand the assignment. And he said, you don't understand life. It's amazing to me that it's just simple app. Just be happy. Now I know you're not always gonna be happy. There's going to be days, but [01:07:30] you know, find a profession, a place to live, you know, a partner that makes you happy.

Speaker 2: So if you were to break down your life as a book into, let's say three chapters, the first being before kids, the second being, you know, having kids and the experience of raising them and the third being them flying the nest. [01:08:00] Can you think of what those chapters might be called?

Speaker 3: Chapter one, be the shitstorm chapter two would be take a seat

Speaker 2: And then three would be hopefully hang on. Okay. And I'll, I'll end this with a question that Tim Ferriss [01:08:30] likes to ask at the end in his podcast, which is, you know, what message would you put on a billboard? And I mean, that, in the sense of what message would you give other dads, you know, expecting dads, dads of young people, dads of kids, younger than yours, a message that you know, anything for whatever reason, what do you feel like they should drive by? Look at the sign and read. I would go back to let them be kids. Let them be kids. Yeah. [01:09:00] Awesome. Well, I'll call that a wrap. I appreciate your time and tell us some questions and, uh, uh, I hope that other dads out there get something out of this. So thanks a lot, man. Thank you very much.