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Learning to Dad with Tyler Ross 021 - Mark Winkler

Speaker 2: Hello. Welcome to [00:00:30] learning to dad. This is Tyler Ross and my guest today is mark Winkler. Thank you so much for taking the time to be

Speaker 3: Here. Absolutely. It's my pleasure. Oh

Speaker 2: Yeah, we got connected over Instagram. I think a, a mutual admiration of what we're we're each doing. You are fatherhood underscore circle. You've got a, you got a book coming out called my daughter's keeper. It sounds like, sounds like your experience with, uh, custody and growth [00:01:00] as a father. And the thing that sounds like I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it is manhood camp and just, just I bro. I, I never have napkins or tissues and everything

Speaker 3: You got from fan,

Speaker 2: But I mean, I feel like there's so much to talk to you about that. I just want to, like, I guess just jump in a little bit on the point [00:01:30] of the whole conversation is to share a wide variety of experiences from people that are super deliberate and thoughtful about being a dad and everything that you're involved in seems to be motivated exclusively from a desire to be an amazing father and mentor to people. So can you just give us a quick little background on, you know, where you're from, what you're in, what you did up until having your daughter?

Speaker 3: Sure. Well, [00:02:00] as my wife always points out, she says I'm from St. Louis, which I am, but I always like to start my, my story off in New York because I moved there. So yeah, when I was about 12 years old, but, uh, so I'm from New York by way of St. Louis. I grew up in New York and that's kind of where, you know, I, I developed and, and, and came to my understanding the things I like. I don't like things I want to participate in, in my life. And so that, you know, and that, and that long, that journey, it brought me to [00:02:30] a California I'm sort of hitting the fast forward button to get a ladder, but a bumpy to California with work that I was doing with my brother who was an entertainment manager. So I, he brought me in to help him with that endeavor.

Speaker 3: And so we, we got involved with a, with a pretty big company out here in California. And so we, and that relationship developed, but it sort of developed, it went high, then it was molded, it sort of phased out. And then, so after that relationship was, was, was dissolving, [00:03:00] that's what I started to get really involved with, you know, wanting to sort of go back to my roots when I was in New York, I started working with youth and parents. And so I got, I got back into that, but, uh, so it was in California that I became a father, but so a lot, but a lot of my journey in terms of my interests with working with youth and families, I think that was cultivated in New York city. Yeah. So that was the long and short of it.

Speaker 2: Oh, that's, that's [00:03:30] perfect because I want to talk so much as much as I'm interested in knowing about you. I want to hear about your parenting experience. So at what point along your professional path was having your child introduce?

Speaker 3: Well, that was, that was what I got out here to California. Right. I, uh, I became a father when I met this, this young lady and we had a child together. Uh, we tried to do the parenting thing together. We would just oceans [00:04:00] apart in terms of our philosophy on parenting. And we, we decided that that wasn't going to work out so that, you know, led to a separation at first, I think it was a, it was a peaceful separation that it turned on unpeaceful. And that, uh, in, in a lot of this, I talk about in my book, Tyler, in terms of what, what transpired after the, the, the, the conversations turned from peaceful and peaceful agreements [00:04:30] on how to co-parent. So it not being peaceful. I already been a mentor, but there was a much different experience when I became a father. Right. It was, it was a, it was a world that I knew in and taught because my brother was a father by that time, my older brother and my younger brother. So I thought I got to knew what father was going to be based upon my experience as an uncle. But I found that, uh, it was much different.

Speaker 2: [00:05:00] What do you think was the biggest

Speaker 3: Difference? I think the biggest difference was you can't leave. You come in as an uncle and bells and whistles, and you're throwing dollar bills around. And the kids that love you, you bring things that the parents don't want the kids to have sweets and stuff like that. And you are the, you are the favorite uncle, but then you realize that as a father, you have to make decisions that, you know, sometimes [00:05:30] your children will be joyous about. And sometimes they will give you the, I like, I don't like you at this moment. And so I think that was the biggest difference I had to live in that space as a father, I had to live in that experience. And as an uncle, you don't have to do that.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It sounds like a lot, a lot of your moving forward a lot, like your book, it sounds like is inspired by the experience you have with your daughter's mother. Can [00:06:00] you speak to that a little bit and how that trend?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there was, and I think like a lot of relationships that begin with, you know, two people not really understanding or having, you know, mutual understanding of, of what the other person wants. This, you kind of build in expectations that aren't real. Like you try to build in thoughts for the other person, but you don't really have a foundational conversation that you need to have. And, and, and [00:06:30] this was that type of relationship. So when we, when we realized that the relationship was not working by the time we realized that we had had the child was here, so we tried and, you know, move past some of those that, that, that's this thing that we now understand about each other, but it, it didn't work. And what happened. And I talk about in the book, we began to have conflict and that conflict began to present itself in front of the child, my child, and her child, our child.

Speaker 3: And I said, [00:07:00] Hey, look, I can't, this is not, you know, we can't do this. Right. So we, so it was a decision that was made that, you know, we, when we parted ways, we said, we're still going to try and have, as I mentioned, a, um, a relationship, a parenting relationship, that was, that was basically in the best interest of the child, but it didn't end up that way. Right. Because it was certain things that I was still working on. And with, within myself, right. Certain things that I had not really fully got developed where myself and one of the things [00:07:30] was just, you know, understanding that when you close, before you open another door, you close, you, you fully closed the door that you were believe it out of. And, you know, I didn't do that. Right. I didn't ha it wasn't, it wasn't in the, in any indiscretions, but, you know, I'd developed a relationship and a friendship with, uh, with the person who's now my wife.

Speaker 3: And as a result of that, you know, when my child's mother discovered this, you know, there was a turn in the, the conversation [00:08:00] about our parenting conversation. And, and that, I think, you know, I think that was the beginning of the, uh, of the Stripe. That was the beginning of a, of an emerging new narrative about how she, you know, was discussing me to the public. And, you know, that narrative led to me being a, not a good father, not a good person. Right. And as a result of that, you know, I knew when I saw the, the mounting [00:08:30] narrative that was, that was growing. And I said to myself, you know, I don't want to go to court. You know, I, as a father, I didn't want to have a relationship with my daughter and my child's mother in a court. But I realized that at a certain point that if I did not go, and I did not file that eventually her narrative was the path that it was taken.

Speaker 3: I knew that it was leading towards some sort of court action. So I said that I wanted to get in front of that. Right. I wanted to get in front of that narrative. And I wanted to put what was [00:09:00] the person that I was, I wanted to present that. And what I wanted as a father, it had nothing to do with anger or anger or bitterness about the mother. In fact, my conversation, my paperwork had very little to do with the mother. It had, it had more so to do with my right as a father and my child's right as a, as a child to have a good father in her life. And so that paperwork hit and the net, you know, it was, it was it ballooned into a lot. We can talk a little bit about it more, [00:09:30] but the bottom line was, and I tell fathers this all the time.

Speaker 3: I said, if you're in a situation where you are, you know, where you see that you cannot have a fruitful parenting relationship, I fruitful. I mean that, you know, you can see your child when the appointed time and, and your mother can have, you know, the mother can have time as well, and the child can get, you know, an equal amount of time with both parents, or at least a fair amount of time with both parents that you have to go in and [00:10:00] establish, you know, your parental rights. I said, either way, you have to do that. Right. But if you find out that you cannot have a relationship, then you have to go in and make certain that you, that you file. And I did that. And luckily I did that before any action was taken against me. And, you know, the court was able to see that, you know, Hey, look, here's a father that, um, has, um, you know, has presented a case in this case, was that, um, you know, he's been a good father [00:10:30] and I documented everything that I did with my child. I kept good paperwork. And I was very, I was very methodical about making certain that when I, when I presented my case, it was not a case based upon emotions. Not that I was not some sort of robot, right. I was, I wasn't Spock here or anything like that. Right. But, uh, I, uh, I presented things in a way that I could back up what I was saying. And I tell the fathers that I work [00:11:00] with to do that. We can talk about that a little later.

Speaker 2: Yeah. You had a, a wonderful Instagram post that I listened to where you speak to the relationship with your child's mother, and there has to be love there. And there has to be respect there. And it sounds like what was it at a time? A very adversarial relationship is at least from your perspective, become one of respect and acknowledging the importance of mom and the importance of dad and the importance of working together. [00:11:30] What kind of work was done on yourself to get from where you were to having that perspective?

Speaker 3: I think for me, I had to step outside of myself and I had to not come from an egotistical perspective. And I had to look at what was most important to my daughter. Right. And what was most important to my daughter was that she was able to have a relationship with both of her parents free of, you know, trying to make [00:12:00] a decision about, you know, was the, is the, is the mother okay as the father? Okay. I didn't want how I felt about the mother to interfere with the child's, you know, thought process about her mother. Right. And that began really, for me, it began in the, in the court process, right. Because what I w what I knew Tyler was, if I went into court with a certain feeling or certain thoughts of negativity about the mother that was going to cloud every decision that I had to make, right.

Speaker 3: It was going to cloud me, being able [00:12:30] to put down certain things in the paperwork about the mother, about our relationship, to things that were helping the things that were good. If I was coming from the perspective of, you know, this, this, this mother at this point is trying to prevent me from seeing my child, right. And that hurts me. And even though it did hurt me, I knew that if I allowed that to really create and to fill up so much real estate in my mind, that I wouldn't be able to, you know, one go into court and be fair and balanced about what I said. And beyond [00:13:00] that, I think more importantly, I knew that when it came time for me to talk to my daughter about my relationship with her mother and my daughter, talking to me about her relationship with her mother, I didn't want anything of negativity to interfere with that.

Speaker 3: I wanted her to have her own relationship, her own thoughts. So I think it started there in court, and it's continued that way. I'm not going to fabricate and say everything is roses, but, but everything between [00:13:30] me and my daughter and my conversation about the mother is it has remained consistent. It is. And that is, is that, you know, as the daughter, you must respect your mother. When they, when they're together. I said, you have to make certain that you're respectful and that, you know, the time that you guys spend is enjoyable and you don't, you know, you don't say anything disrespectful when she, when she says things that disagreement I listened to when she had disagreements with a mother, I listen, I don't fan the flames and try [00:14:00] to make it my favorite. Like, I'm the better parent. And, you know, because eventually as she gets older, speaking to my daughter, she is going to be able to, you know, with a developed mind, you know, look into this matter a little bit closer, and with a little bit more intricate understanding, it's just going to say, you know what, you know, my father, if I went in the more negative ways he goes, that father, you know, he said a lot of things to me back when I was younger.

Speaker 3: And that really kept me from developing a relationship with my mother, you [00:14:30] know, the potential of a good relationship. And I don't want that to be. And so that's, I think that was the spirit of that, that clip that you see,

Speaker 2: That that's a really beautiful way of putting it. My, my dad's an attorney, uh, he's a real estate attorney transactions, but as partners do domestic work. And so I see so many divorces come through office. And so many of them are emotionally driven and egotistically driven. And it's not about what's best for everybody or the family. It's about what can I get [00:15:00] out of that person? What can I take away? How can I hurt them? And the egos associated on both sides, the husband and the wife, or wife and wife, husband, husband, whatever it is, try. It makes no sense to me because it's, there's an easy way to do it. And there's a hard way to do it. And it's gotta be the ego that makes it the hard way. And it sounds like a lot of your work is centered around getting that ego in check so that you can be practical and make good decisions [00:15:30] for everybody. Is that what fatherhood circle is about

Speaker 3: It is, it is. It's about, it's about accountability. It's about recognizing when that ego is emerging. It's about, it's about understanding, you know, are you doing this for the best interest of your child, or are you doing this to hurt the other parent? Are you doing this to, you know, give yourself some sort of congratulatory moment, uh, or are you, you're doing this [00:16:00] with the mindset that these decisions that are making are going to profoundly affect what happens to my child, our child, the mother and father stopped together in the future. Right? And I think that what the fatherhood circle we've developed conversation that we've developed with the fathers and I, and this is the beautiful thing, you know, it's, it's, it's when we started the meeting, there was a lot of reticence about sharing and about being accountable we're men, right? We don't necessarily do those things right.

Speaker 3: But as [00:16:30] people start coming in and people repeat, you know, coming in, what, after, you know, the next meeting after the next, we've created an atmosphere where they understand that when you come in and you talk about how you're feeling, whatever experiencing experience you're having with your child, whether it be something extreme like court, or whether it just be, you're having trouble with your teenage daughter, you know, we ask that you come in and, and, and honestly present to us what's happening. And when I say honestly, present, I mean, talk about what your [00:17:00] role is in this matter, right? The positive, constructive aspects of your role and the, and the things that are not positive. Things that are deconstructed, things that are taking down the situation in a way that it should not be taken down. And, and I love the way that the fathers hold the other fathers accountable. And so that's the, that's the atmosphere that we're trying to maintain and grow. And the fatherhood circle. I know

Speaker 2: I have always fancy myself, a bit of a loner, trying to relate to people has been difficult, [00:17:30] but I'm realizing that as a human, I think our inclination is to be part of a group part of something bigger and better to work together. And are you finding that these men, when they become part of a group like fatherhood circle, uh, blossom in a way that they become more, you know, available having real conversations?

Speaker 3: Absolutely. I look, we are, we are a tribe driven, right? We have, we have our cliques. We, we, we, we, as men, we like sports and we have particular sport teams. [00:18:00] We ended up going to the same spot, like at that television show, cheers, where everyone knows our name. So, so we have these moments right where this happens, and it's no different than the father for once they come in and they start to feel a part of the tribe, they feel like I can start expressing myself. And the thing about the fatherhood circle, it's not mandated. Right. So I talk about in my book that, you know, I knew at a certain point that I could no longer isolate, right. And so I started to reach out to different groups [00:18:30] and I found some groups out here and, you know, a couple of them, you know, one I really loved, but it was, it was basically mandated for a lot of the fathers.

Speaker 3: And I still noticed that, that, that, that reservation to you really just talk about what was going on. So that was one of the things I said, look, if you're mandated, you can come, but this is not, I didn't want to partner with any in a court situation. Cause I didn't want this to be that way. I want it to be a place where if you want to come, you can come, you can sit down. We could be in this tribe [00:19:00] sort of moment. And we can talk about what's happening. Right. And again, it's not all about severe parenting moments, like quarter, something like that. For instance, recently guide came in and said, Hey, look, you know, I'm having trouble with my little princess, not talking to me anymore, but his little princess as a teenager now. And so that's a real moment, man. My daughter is 11 and I have two step-daughters who are teenagers, but my, my biological daughter is 11 and I can see the changes happening.

Speaker 3: [00:19:30] I can see her becoming more independent of thought, which is good. And I'm encouraging that, but it's difficult because it's not all like, okay, dad had his right. Dad is great. Dad is super bad, right? It's like a dad, but come on, I don't want to do that. Or I just want to be on the phone. And, and those moments, man, when it happens, it stinks. And if you don't have someone that you can talk to about it, it kind of just wrestled with those crazy thoughts. And sometimes in that isolation and that alone can make bad decisions, [00:20:00] right? You can teenage daughter, daughter was becoming a teenager. He wants to do something. And if you don't have counsel to tell you, look, you got to give her space to do that. You try to you're shut it down. Like, no, you go on with me. We going to do what we normally do. I've been doing it, but I've been doing it with a developing hatred for you. So that's part of, that's part of, I think the beauty of having that, that those men around you, where you can have those types of conversations,

Speaker 2: Do you find that it takes very long? [00:20:30] Uh, and when, uh, when a man first joins the group to have the conversation, are they ready to come out and start talking? Or do they have to hear everybody else talk and feel like they've been folded in for,

Speaker 3: I think that'd be folded in and they look, women, men were conditioned, right? I'm reading this by Devon Franklin. And I talk about the truth about men and in the book he talks about being in the man box. Right. And then that box, most men are conditioned and socialized and were socialized not to do that, but socialized [00:21:00] not to talk about our feelings, but socialized not to ask for directions either from when you're driving or life directions. Right. And so these are the things that we're conditioned. So yeah, so that happens. But I think when they come in and they see, they get an opportunity to see other fathers talking and they feel a permission to do that as well. And the permission is granted, you know, sometimes just by visual, sometimes the, Hey look, you didn't want to want to send things. No forced [00:21:30] though, we'll be ready to talk.

Speaker 3: You know, Hey, let's, let's, let's have a conversation kind of like an AA meeting, go bad. You can talk, you don't have to talk. Right. So, uh, but I think eventually I think they see it's a safe space and I think that's the important thing, right? There's no judgment. There's no shaming, there's no criticism. There's, there's, there's being held accountable. That happens right. When we see, Hey, look, I feel like, you know, and it doesn't that doesn't just come from me. Some of the other more seasoned members that, Hey, [00:22:00] I feel like it's beautiful that you share. I think that's something else, you know, and sometimes they're ready to talk about it. You know, sometimes they don't, but then sometimes they'll come back. But they find that when they do fully talk fully emote, fully talk about what's going on, then the men can really give some really good input. Right. Otherwise if you give just enough where you want to just be congratulated for what you're doing in that situation and you know, the guys there, they can kind of see through that. Right. [00:22:30] And, and I think, you know that, um, that's, it's, it's a, it's a development thing. But to your question now, it doesn't happen right away.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Being available to feedback is a pretty vulnerable feeling. And that's not one that we've been culturally conditioned to accept as men. So what is there kind of a common theme among the men that participate in fatherhood circle are they, they come out of left field, could be anything.

Speaker 3: It could be any it. Cause I opened it up to [00:23:00] all, you know, all walks of life. So, you know, we have fathers who are older. We have fathers who are younger. We have fathers who are, you know, black, Spanish, white. So it, it, it runs the gamut right. Of fatherhood. And I think for me, I think that's beautiful because it does the commonality is that we're all fathers, we're all walking this journey. And you know, at times we all don't know what we're doing. Right. And so, you know, fully [00:23:30] know, but we can piece together different information. And because there's an age differences with fathers and the age differences, being different ages of their children, you know, we have fathers, who've gone through, you know, the toddler that, you know, the preaching, the team. We have fathers in there. What couple of fathers who children have grown adults and on and on out of college and in the workspace. And so we get to have this sort of, this gumbo soup of conversation at times, and everyone is bringing out different ideas [00:24:00] and different thoughts and suggestions and, and it's just, it turns out to be a beautiful experience.

Speaker 2: Yeah. That's and that's amazing. It's so cool. This, this podcast is like my way of trying to work towards not being just congratulated for what I'm doing, but like drawing stuff out, you know? So work in progress, always. I think that's amazing group of people and say, Hey, it's okay to you feel about things. Yeah. Talk to me about manhood camp a little bit. That [00:24:30] sounds amazing.

Speaker 3: Well man, who camp was a organization that was started first by my partner business partner, Trayvon Tillis. And he, you know, he came to me, this was about maybe eight, eight or nine years ago. And he said, cause we were working together and he knew that I had done the type of work in New York, working with at-risk youth and parents. So he'd say, Hey, look, I'm starting this organization. You know, do you want to, do you want to help me to develop and grow it? And he was already [00:25:00] having conversations with a school out here in California, where he was going to bring the program. And so I said, look, I love this. You know, let's have the conversation. I liked his vision. I like what he wanted to do with it. And so I sat down with him with the person, I forget the name of the school.

Speaker 3: It was James, my role. And we talked about, you know, bringing the program our nine week program to the school and the person, their name was miss Amy. She was the disciplinary person. And so she said, Hey, look, I have some very, what [00:25:30] are considered to be encourageable bad. And you know, if you want to work with them, you can. And so we did, we started, we came in at, you know, the, after like six or seven weeks she came and she said, what are you guys doing? I mean, he's, they're really engaged. And I think what we did was we, we, we, from the onset of putting together the organization and putting together our curriculum, we said that it was going to be very engaging. It was not going to be a, this is what you should [00:26:00] do sort of moments. And this is what you need to do step ABC to become, to matriculate through, you know, being a young man into manhood successfully.

Speaker 3: But you know, let's talk about where you are. Let's talk about what you're doing. Let's talk about, you know, the things that are positive about what you're doing. And some of the things that, some things that we feel if you add this and it could be, it could be, it could be expanded and you can get so much more enjoyment out of what you're doing, but also you could set yourself on a path. So it was a lot of engagement, was a lot of figuring out [00:26:30] like what their interests were and developing a curriculum around that. And, you know, and it ran the gamut from music, uh, developing, you know, the musical skills, uh, some were interested in business. So put together, you know, different, you know, we designed the way we designed the curriculum with this first, this first endeavor, this first outing of man at camp, what we wanted to make certain that we touched on what they were interested in.

Speaker 3: So we brought in people, you know, guest speakers, we took them out into the community. We, we, we, [00:27:00] uh, align them with different businesses where they can do internships. So we really got them involved in the program. And so we've kept that model going. And we recently probably about two or three years ago, we partnered with an organization out here that works with foster youth. And so that same sort of that same sort of dynamic that we created with that first outing, that first endeavor that we did with the, uh, with the high school we kept going with this program.

Speaker 2: That's amazing straight, straight from the website. It's a 10 week [00:27:30] life skills program focusing on empowering young men, four main principles. Self-awareness self-empowerment personal responsibility and social responsibility. The kids that you have through the program, is there a commonality among them, similar backgrounds or from similar places?

Speaker 3: It is, it is the first, the first cause we, we we've had the program cause it's a mobile program. So we've built several different places, but the more [00:28:00] recent working with the, uh, the organization that we partnered with out here, the children are, are, are from a foster foster hood of the foster family, foster children. And so a lot of it's still there. There's a very similar background of course, and you know, but it's similar and it's different, right. Because what I try not to do, even though there's commonalities of background, we always try and look at the individual. Right. So look, you, you're not necessarily with your parent and you're in this [00:28:30] foster home environment, but what is of interest to you? What, what drives you? What motivates you? What gets you excited? Right. And even though we have, we have a 10 week program in a certain things that we do, we do it in such a way that the, that the individual child is able to get the maximum amount of, of enjoyment and be as productive as they can be within that 10 week dynamic.

Speaker 3: And again, that's really talking to what, you know, listening to the children, listening to, to the youth, like what's important to you, [00:29:00] you know, what, what, what are you excelling at right now? Right. So we had one child who was, you know, who really loved to do coding, right? And so we didn't necessarily have something built in at the time, but we went and partnered with apple and we were able to, you know, expand that and put that into our programming and, you know, so that not only the dead sound benefit, but of course every other child got the benefit of seeing, you know, the importance and, and really, you know, not that [00:29:30] it's not so difficult to do that. Right. And so I think that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the winning formula that we've been using. It's really making sincere connections with the children that they hate what I call them children. And there's no facts you would say to you.

Speaker 2: So, and this is a nonprofit 5 0 1 C3 you're funded just through crowdfunding or sponsorships from companies,

Speaker 3: [00:30:00] Funding, sponsorships. We've gotten a few grants. You know, it's funny. I take my daughter around with me to, uh, these different spaces when I go out to, uh, you know, do the meetings and get the funding. And not that I'm trying to get her to take over the business. I'm trying to get her to understand the mechanics of what it takes to run a business. Cause I would like for her to be an independent business woman at certain point in my life, right. If that's what she chooses, [00:30:30] but I want, cause she, and she, she talks about that. I want to own a business. I want to do this. I said, well, you want to do this right now. Right. But you may not want to do it when you get older. But I love the fact that you're interested in doing it, helping people. So I take her around Tyler still. She can see that this is what daddy has to do in order to sustain the business. Right. And so I take her to the meetings. I let her see me working online. I let her listen to the phone calls and I let her just get absorbed into the idea of this is what it takes to do business. Right. [00:31:00] And so, um, so yeah, so that's what we are. It's a lot of, it's a lot of extending the hat. Like, Hey, you got a dollar.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, sure. No, I think, I think that's so important. Uh, I, I read a blog post about somebody doing exactly what you're doing, where you're exposing your daughter to your a day in the life, just so right over again. And they see the example you're setting. Like I have a small basement gym and I want my kids to watch me work hard [00:31:30] and sweat all that. So is that what a lot of your time with your daughter is like, like working together, showing her these things.

Speaker 3: It is, it's working together, taking a different places, exposing a lead and meeting people. And part of it is I love for my daughter to be able to, you know, not feel, you know, intimidated or scared around people. Right. So I, I would I go in, I say, Hey Lexi, that's the guy I need to talk to. Once you go, you know, let them know I'm here. Right. And so I just want her to feel comfortable [00:32:00] with just, you know, expressing and just being in the space of wherever she wants to be. That's the space she should be. Right. And so I do, I take her around a lot, but it's not all about that, man. We do a lot of other cool stuff. If not, you probably complain a lot more. Right. When we go walk in the lot we love doing that, we take our hikes and we just experienced life. I try to let her experience lifestyler, you know, and let her know that, you know, there's a lot of joy out here. [00:32:30] There's a lot of joy. You can get a mind. There's a lot of things that we have to worry about, but I want her to know that even in that atmosphere of worry and doubt, that you can still have a very enjoyable life. Right. And you just have to find the spaces, what that's happening.

Speaker 2: So I've, I've got a four year old daughter, you've got an 11 year old daughter, what am I at? What am I in for man?

Speaker 3: I think the biggest thing is, is that when they, when they start getting [00:33:00] older and they start going to school and, and the children start to get older, they got to start having conversations. New things are going to come into their conversations. And you know, you gotta, you gotta be prepared for that. Right? You gotta be prepared for a certain amount of distance started to started to happen between you and the child. And I think as parents, I think if we quickly recalibrate and get into where they are in the spaces of their thought and their development, I think we can stay in [00:33:30] step with them. Right. And one of the things I do with my daughter, you know, I don't assume that she doesn't know something. Right. Like, even though she doesn't talk about something, whether that be about relationships, you know, physical relationships or, or, or things that as a father, I wouldn't necessarily want her to talk about, I'm not that, but I don't frankly know what to talk about with her.

Speaker 3: I don't assume because she's not talking about it. She's not being exposed to it. Right. So, you know, I leave open the space, Hey, look, [00:34:00] you know, you are 11 and you're around 11 other 11 year olds that have phones that I'm sure that are not, there are only parental guidance equipped. So they get to surf the net. Right. And still, they gotta be exposed to a lot. So I go in Matt and I, and I listened to her. I listened to the games that she plays. She asked me to come in. I do that. And I sit down and even so some of the games, man, they're like, oh my God, I gotta listen to this again. I do bad. And [00:34:30] I listened to it. And some of it, I generally find like enjoyable. Right? So, but I think the biggest thing, Tyler is that you go on to find that she's gone.

Speaker 3: There's gotta be more challenge around maybe seven or eight as he gets to 10 or 11. Those challenges are going to increase about what she doesn't want to do. She's got to be around people. She's got to become more body conscious. Right. So what she wants to wear, and you have to be able to say, Hey, look, you know, like my daughter, for instance, she, um, she has [00:35:00] this thing that when she wants to wear, like these types of the girls are wearing, right. And so I said, Hey, look. I said, Hey, look, I, I don't want to tell you what to wear and what not to wear. Right. But you have to understand that as a father, certain things that's happening to you right now. I'm just not fully ready for it. Right. So, so I've asked you if, okay, so you want to wear that, just make sure you wear with a shirt that covers your heinie.

Speaker 3: That's this long enough. [00:35:30] And that I won't, you won't have any problems with me. Right. But then, but then you have to catch yourself. Right. Because some of the things that we say as parents are just automatic from how, what, what we learned as children from my parents, I give you an example. My daughter wanted to get her hair cut. Right. And my first reaction was, no, you can't do it. Right. And I thought about my no. And I realized that there was no sort of basis for my note, other than the fact [00:36:00] that my mother and aunts and grandmother basically led me to believe that a girl is pretty old with long hair. Yeah. Right. So that was the basis of my note. But my daughter said something, I talked to my daughter about this because I said, if you want to get your haircuts, you have to call your grandmother Tyler.

Speaker 3: She made that call bad. Right. And so, but then when she got off the phone, she said, okay, dad, here's, here's the thing. I want you to give me an answer, but I want you to give me an answer. Not based upon [00:36:30] what your mother thinks at what your aunt thinks and not what you think based upon what you, what I've told you, what I've wanted. And I thought about it, man. And I really didn't have an answer. Like I really couldn't give an honest, no, the fact that she asked that, I said, you know this, because the question, the way you pose that I've got to get out of your way. And I got out, I got out of her way and [00:37:00] she got a haircut bad. And it wasn't, the sun still came up the next morning.

Speaker 3: But I did that, man, because you know, she's not, she's, she's 11. And I want her to start defining what she sees as beautiful, right. Not how the world sees, you know, beauty. If she sees beauty and short hair, then I want her to do that. And I don't want her to feel she had to curtail that thinking because of her father, because of her grandmother or anyone. Right. I [00:37:30] want her to start making these decisions. And I think that's the hard part as parents. When you talk about what are you in for, I think letting go of, of these, of these things that we have control over, or we think we have control over sort of letting go and letting her find the space. I recently told her that, you know, there was no Santa Claus man, like last year. Right. And she knew, I think she allowed me the space to let her believe that there was still a Santa clause.

Speaker 3: And the reason I waited so [00:38:00] long is because of that idea of that control, man, I wanted to still keep her in some sort of, you know, ideal of things being magical and things may be beautiful, you know? And I think those are sort of the hard things, man, when you see, and you just start seeing the development and you see her moving into womanhood, right. It was a young lady and, and you start to, uh, and then you start to think about all the other thoughts and these thoughts start happening around 10 or 11, because you know that these are the times you think about when you were 10 or 11, [00:38:30] kind of what was going on in middle school. Right? And so those are the thoughts, man, that we don't want as parents, but we have to be able to make the right decisions around what's happening with us and our children.

Speaker 2: It's so I'm finding one of the most I'm expecting I'm not there yet, but I'm expecting as my daughter and my son both get older, that I'm going to have to have a lot of self-awareness associated with the context of their lives versus the context of mine. Like you talked [00:39:00] about your mom or grandmother defining something one way, because that's the way it was then. But now it's different trying to really like, we have to really allow the, their world. We have to see that. And one of the biggest things of course is social media. You didn't have that. I didn't have. That is what I know. That's something that we wanted to talk about. Like speak to me about your thoughts on social media and the role it's playing in your daughter's life. [00:39:30] Her friends lives, the manhood camp kids lives.

Speaker 3: It's enormous, Matt. And I think that my, you know, I have this love, hate relationship, but social media, right on the one hand, it definitely has helped me as a, as a business owner with a man of the cap to get the word out there about man had cap to do the crowdfunding. But on the other hand, when I think about the children, it sets them in positions where they now [00:40:00] have to define their life and their relationships through these really quick moments. Right? And these at times, very artificial moments. And it's something that you really can't, you can't control because those things are not going to change until the dynamics of those platforms change and who knows. They may not right change in a way that's more healthy. And so you worry about what your child is going to be exposed to on there.

Speaker 3: You know, that you, this, [00:40:30] there's no way to really do a real serious provincial control because if you try to regulate it on one way, they can just go to school and get there, or they can create a fake account that you never know exists. And so you really just have to, what I find you really have to, you really have to have really open and honest conversations with, with your children, you, and you really have to make them feel comfortable that if they come to you with something, or if you've gotta be in a conversation about something that's very sensitive to them, [00:41:00] whether it be the, like in a, you know, having a crush on someone or developing feelings for someone that you're not going to shut that down, you're not going to make them feel like they can't have those moments or that you're young for those moments because they cause we had them with w w when we were of their age.

Speaker 3: So we have to know that these things are going to happen. And so we have to be very open about, you know, Hey, this keeping an open atmosphere in door, like come to me, talk to me. And when we really cause when we really need them to come to us, if they, [00:41:30] if we're not starting that now when they're young, like would they come to us with anything that they come and we, we can honestly make them feel comfortable in that moment that when they re when we really need them to come and they're having real problems with their teenage years, they may find answers out there with their friends or, you know, some social media contact that they have, and God knows what they would hear from there. But as a parent, man, I worry about, you know, social media, because there's a lot [00:42:00] of creeps out there.

Speaker 3: Right. So worry about them making contact. And, and I know a lot of, you know, a lot of, uh, and I did this thing, this whole, you know, conversation I had developed around human trafficking. I'm not going to get too much into that really at all, but I know a lot of those people prey on, you know, pray through the social media. Right. And so those thoughts, man, as a father, I, and as a, as a youth mentor, I'm concerned with. But I think what, for me, it's important that I just [00:42:30] let my child know if you need me, if you need to talk to me, I'm here. Right. And so, and so I think, um, I think that's been helped when I think I can see that that's working because my child does come to me with a lot of things. Right. She will come to me and she'll say that, you know, I, she did recently. She said, I liked this boy, right?

Speaker 2: What's his name? Where's he living?

Speaker 3: [00:43:00] And so I'd say the first time this happened and I was really playing, but my daughter, a couple of buds didn't really tell me anything else about this boy. But when I first met him, right. I said, uh, as it, Hey, so you like my daughter? Huh? And he got scared. I thought he was like, what are you doing? What are you doing? Right. And so he stood up, he said, yeah. He said, my daddy straw,

Speaker 3: [00:43:30] Bye Jim father. That's just my quirky humor, man. She gets me, but then she didn't get it. So she didn't really talk to me about this guy for a couple of bucks, man. So, but, uh, but I, but, but in series that we have to be able to have these conversations that as fathers, especially fathers with girl children, we don't want to have that conversation. Right. We don't want to think about little princess potentially, you know, holding [00:44:00] hands or, you know, getting a kiss from some boy on the, on the school yard. We don't want to think about those things, but those things happen. Right. So I think I was 12 or 11 when I first kissed some father's daughter. So it's a reality. Right. So

Speaker 2: Well, so do you have any advice for parents on how to establish that relationship with their kids on getting them to just, you know, getting your kid to trust you

Speaker 3: [00:44:30] Think you have to? I think one of the things that's been helpful for me is that, you know, I spend time with my daughter. I, you know, I make time for her. We walk, we talk, I leave open for her to talk about things that she wants to talk about. I even bring up conversations about, Hey, look, is this, uh, you know, is, is this going on at school? Or have you heard about this? Or what have you heard about, you know, things that, you know, men [00:45:00] and women do? I bring up uncomfortable conversations with her, but because we spend so much time together and that time is really, you know, I make time for her on the weekends and during the week. So I create moments that, you know, become opportunities

Speaker 2: For her, for us to share, you know, once or the other. And I think engaging, if you see her playing or your child playing a particular video game, sit down, ask them earnestly, do you play that game? Let me play with you, show an entrance [00:45:30] that they're doing. You probably won't go and buy the games yourself, but at least your child will see that you're engaging when your child breaks your particular thing of interest. Uh, whether it be, you know, she shows interest or he shows interest in drawing or whatever, try to find opportunities for them to do that. You know, let them know that you are aware of what's of interest to them. So I think those things are important for parents to be mindful of. Yeah. Yeah. Most definitely. So [00:46:00] between your daughter and the kids that you've mentored, have you seen, have you seen any, uh, like real bullying and had to teach a kid how to handle bullying?

Speaker 3: Yeah. One of the so-so with bullying. One of the things I tell my daughter and I tell your youth, I work with, you know, don't be quiet about it. If it's happening to you or with someone don't be quiet about it. Right. But tell someone that you trust, right. And if you are talking to your child and you have this open air relationship [00:46:30] and you were developing that your child will come to you. Right. And, and, you know, I tell them to, you know, with the kids I work with, I let them know, Hey, look, you know, if it's not your foster parent, that you find someone at school that you can trust that you can have this conversation. But, you know, I tell them, you know, don't engage. And with my daughter, you know, I try to, I say, look, you know, people, when they, when they end that bullying mode, there's something there that's something missing.

Speaker 3: Right. And you, by you engaging, that's not going to [00:47:00] solve the problem. Right. Engaging, meaning, trying to escalate the situation. So if it happens, you know, if you can, you know, get away, just move out of the space, just, you know, whatever you say, don't do anything, say anything to escalate it, just get out of the space as quickly as you can. Because the bully bullies, when the, when that person of, of that, that object of the bully is right in front of them normally. Right. And so then you go find someone who can interrupt that, find someone who can stop that. [00:47:30] And it's not easy, man, because sometimes when it's happening on social media, you know, that's, you know, who do you talk to? Right. But, you know, it's hard because they can trace you and find you in different ways. And so, you know, that's where I, I think again, being connected to your child is important because, you know, you will, you know, they will feel more comfortable about talking to you perhaps about, Hey, look, I'm being, this has happening to me online.

Speaker 3: Right. Yeah. But when you make them feel like, you know, [00:48:00] they're going to get lectured or they're going to get in trouble in some way, like I told you, that's what goes on the internet. You shouldn't have been on there, then they're going to, that's going to be that reticence about being, be reservation about coming to you. So I, you know, the big thing is I say, look, it's, it's, it's happening. It's it's going to happen. Try to find someone. I let my daughter in the youth know, try to find someone that you trust that you can talk to. Who's responsible. Who's going to guide you in the proper way. Who's got to do some sort of positive intervention. That's not going to escalate the situation. [00:48:30] So seek that, seek that first,

Speaker 2: Um, something else I know we wanted to touch on, um, you know, my, my segue into, it's going to be the question, a lot of the kids that you mentor, uh, single, single parent kids, can you speak to the impact of one parent and, uh, you know what that's like for them as the kids,

Speaker 3: You know,

Speaker 2: Like parents can lead the nation is the, uh, the

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think when you have, when [00:49:00] you have single parents, you know, one of the things I talk about and, you know, in the fatherhood, so-called a lot is that, you know, especially, you know, fathers who are experiencing, as I said, look, it's painful. It's, uh, it's like a, it's like a death at times when you're not able to see your child properly. Uh, but you know, so I, I make certain with the parents that I talk with, that I have the opportunity to work with. I say, you know, if you're experiencing [00:49:30] this, you know, don't isolate find people that you can talk to, uh, when you do see your child, you know, get the most quality time that you can get. And the children that I work with that are going through this, man, I try and do my best to, you know, let them, you know, let them, if they have, you know, they need to talk about it, to create an atmosphere where they can talk about it.

Speaker 3: Uh, if we have to connect them to counselors, we do that. But I think, you know, [00:50:00] when I, when I, when I see it's happening and I have an opportunity to sit with both parents, you know, one of the things that we try and do is to get them to understand that, you know, you guys are gonna have these negative feelings about each other, right? That we may not be able to do anything about that. But what we can do is make certain that your child is happy, right? And that involves, you know, your child having a healthy relationship with both parents. Right? And [00:50:30] if you, and if you, if you interrupt that or prevent that from happening, you are not hurting. And this is the whole, this is the, this is the bottom line of parental alienation. You're not hurting the parent and you are hurting the parent of course, cause the parent hurts, but who you're really hurting as the child because the child misses out on that opportunity to really experience what both parents can bring to that dynamic right to the child's life.

Speaker 3: And ideally it could be in both if they were together bringing those things, [00:51:00] but you know, that doesn't happen. You know, when it's, when it's not happening, both parents can still contribute in a very positive way. So it sucks, man, you know, but we try and, you know, when we do see as happened to the man, we try and do as much as we can to support the youth that it's happening to either through counseling, the reinforcement of what we're doing and reinforcing that the child is, you know, it's not his fault or her fault. Um, we try and get the other parent, if there's any support, legal [00:51:30] support that that needs to happen or counseling for him, uh, with the father that's going on or just extra support, you know, calling the father, just try to get them through those moments. We try to create as much as support network as we can to, uh, you know, because it's, it's, it's the worst man, when you have a child that you, that you, that you love and you can't see because the other parent is using that child as a, um, as a, as a weapon against you.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. That's seen it happen. [00:52:00] It's it's just horrible to see. So any, any advice directly to a parent who's who, you know, they're in a perfect world, they'd meet in the middle with the parent, they're the other parent, but you know, they, the one parent comes halfway and the other, parent's not moving that parent that's working hard. Like what advice can you give to them to be patient or keep their eye on the prize?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think what you have to do is just at a certain point, if you see that, you know, if [00:52:30] it's not like a full-blown parental alienation situation, but it's, it's not a co-parenting dynamic and it's more of a, you know, we're parallel parenting to not worry about what's going on in the other parent's home. As long as the child is not being hurt or abused emotionally or physically, don't worry about what's going on in the other parent home, don't try and have a relationship or co-parenting relationship, but that can't exist. Just do everything that you can do that is that's constructive and productive for the child. When that child [00:53:00] is with you. I do all the things that we've talked about during the course of this conversation, connecting and spending time. Just worry about your relationship with your child and your relationship with your child and that in your child or the other parent is going to be what it is.

Speaker 3: Right. You can show the example of how, what it, what a productive provincial child relationship is, and that as the child gets, they will have that example. They would say, well, look, I see all my father [00:53:30] as I'm just going as use fathers because I work with, but I see how my father is handling my relationship with me versus what's going on over here. And at a certain point, the child won't, you know, even if he's getting confusing messages from the other side, the child will be able to say, look, my father was consistent. My father did this, he did this. He didn't talk about, you know, my, my, my mother, I didn't hear any negativity coming, you know? And so I can say that, you know, this is the type of parent, or this is [00:54:00] the type of human being that I want to be. Right. Versus, you know, and, and, and that's still love my mother, but, you know, I've, I feel that this, some things that needs to happen for her to be the best person that she can be. So, but I, but I'm, so I'm not going to make those same mistakes. So the biggest thing is just, just concentrate on the relationship with your child, right. Especially at a certain point, when you see that co-parenting just dis is just not possible.

Speaker 2: So tell me three [00:54:30] qualities that you think every father needs, three traits, qualities, characteristics.

Speaker 3: I think they need to be open. I think they need to be accountable and I think they need to not be ego-driven.

Speaker 2: Okay. Do you have anything that you put into practice to, to stay that way yourself?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely, man. I think when I, when something goes wrong, when something goes wrong in a situation, so I'm learning, I'm having the ability to do that more, to be accountable [00:55:00] ego. I, um, I sense when, when, when something's happening, I sense, you know, when I get upset about something, is this, you know, is this something that, you know, I'm upset about this? Am I upset because I really see some injustice for something being wrong in this situation. My apartment is in this parenting dynamic, or is the child, you know, am I just upset that not my daughter is not doing what I say anymore as, as a, as an 11 year old? Like she did versus when she was three. Yeah.

Speaker 2: [00:55:30] Let me ask you, since you've become a father, how have you become a better father?

Speaker 3: One of the things that I did was I stopped parenting. I talked about this earlier. I stopped, you know, parenting on, on autopilot or, or just from a robotic sort of, this is how I should, this is how things should be done. I think I become a better, better parent, um, by, by listening and by being [00:56:00] open to, you know, this new world that we spoke about, that our children are moving into, right. And being open to learning about those things, being open to participating in her world. And so I think that has helped me to be a better father and really just a better man managers helped me to put down my ego, right. And it's helped me to be in, in the groups that I conduct. And it's helped me to be able to, you know, when something is bothering me to be able to express those things.

Speaker 3: [00:56:30] And so I'm showing, you know, my example of being able to, you know, talk about, you know, what's going on. And my child sees that when I'm having those conversations with my wife, my child can see that, you know, this is, this is how a person should conduct themselves in a relationship. This is how a person should conduct themselves in a personal relationship in a business relationship. So it's helped me to be a better parent just by being open more and being more, less ego-driven [00:57:00] and being more, I love that word being more accountable, you know?

Speaker 2: And so writing your book, I find writing to be very internal reflection time. So what what'd you learn about yourself as you wrote my daughter's keeper?

Speaker 3: I think the biggest thing was I learned that, um, I was, um, I think I was, I learned that I was selfish and in relationships [00:57:30] selfish in that I thought I was because I was a good guy. Right. I thought I was a good guy in some sense, you know, but I learned that, you know, a lot of ways I was very selfish and not thought about, you know, I would create environments that were, you know, were not violent. They were, they were peaceful, they were joyful, but they were based upon, you know, what I thought was joyful, what I thought it was very much about centered around me. Right. And I realized [00:58:00] that in the course of writing this book, that, you know, that was something that I needed to change. Right. And I definitely needed to change as a father, but also, you know, coming into a relationship in a new marriage, I needed to be able to look at, you know, this world around me and look at other people's needs, not necessarily relationship to my needs, but you know, how can I better serve their needs and to help them grow, especially my daughter, but even with my wife, [00:58:30] helping, you know, the relationship grow and being as concerned about her happiness as I, as a man, wanted to be happy in this world.

Speaker 3: So I think that was the biggest thing for me.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So, um, one of the, one of the things I think, so it's important for people to have is resilience. How, how do you teach your daughter to be resilient?

Speaker 3: Well, I teach her that, you know, life has got to bring ups and downs and that she has to, you know, enjoy the ups [00:59:00] and learn from the downs. And I think she has to be able to not be afraid to, you know, get back up and to go after what you want, even though it may take longer than what she, what she expected, because sometimes things in life take longer. And I think me taking her to these different spaces and me having to ask over and over again and make calls over and over again, and to not be [00:59:30] withered in my, in my pursuits, she, she sees that. So I think through my example, I think she sees that, you know, life can be beautiful, but it takes, you know, it takes time to get to that beautiful, beautiful space.

Speaker 2: Yeah. All right. Um, um, uh, one more question then I'll get to like rapid fire questions. What is the role of a father?

Speaker 3: I think the role of a father is to be, I think the biggest, or they [01:00:00] used to be an example of what the child, you know, how the child should be when they get older. I don't look at traditional roles. Some people would say, as the provider of protector, those things are present and our dynamics, but I think, you know, showing the child, you know, how to love really how to love themselves and how to receive love and give love to me, that's the biggest role of a father man got to take from there. Everything can grow. The person loves themselves and able to, you [01:00:30] know, take that love and then project that love that, that they're going to be pretty terrific human beings as they get older.

Speaker 2: So awesome. So, um, I'll get into some kind of rapid fire questions and then I'm going to let you go. So you can turn the air conditioner on in your car, mark, What is on your not to do list as a dad,

Speaker 3: Not to, you know, be careful not to define what the child's lives should be, meaning that, you know, I [01:01:00] don't put the child in a sort of a cookie cutter sort of, uh, uh, position where you say, okay, and I want you to be, you know, you're going to go to dance class, you're going to do this. You're going to do this, not to define what happiness is for the child, but to let that and let that, let that happen naturally.

Speaker 2: Awesome. Uh, what's, what's the greatest hope you have for your daughter

Speaker 3: That she's happy, man. Right. And I'm not going to define what that happiness is, but when she gets older that she can honestly [01:01:30] look around and her life, whatever four walls or whatever space she's in and say, I'm happy

Speaker 2: The, yeah. The book of your life. What chapter are you in now?

Speaker 3: Yes. Pretty good question. I've make, uh, I think probably I would be in new beginnings. Right. I think after going through the courts and becoming a father, [01:02:00] I think, uh, I'm in new beginnings because I'm learning a lot about, I've learned a lot about who I thought I was versus who I want to be. So this is a chapter. It would be new beginnings.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Love it. How would you describe the type of father you want to be remembered? As

Speaker 3: I want my daughter to remember me as someone that she could come to, someone that she can feel comfortable and [01:02:30] talking about what she wanted to talk about, what she needed to talk about and someone that was there for her, you know, no matter what my dad was there for me,

Speaker 2: I love it. All right. Who's your favorite television father?

Speaker 3: Hmm, that's a good one, man. You know, I would probably say, I would probably say I read probably uncle Phil from, uh, fresh prince of Bel air.

Speaker 2: [01:03:00] I love that it never even occurred to me, but that's wonderful. It's great. So, um, Lewis house runs a podcast called school of greatness and he fed me this question. I think it's a great question. Um, when do you feel the most loved?

Speaker 3: That's a great question, man. I think I feel the most loved when I am with my family, my nuclear [01:03:30] family, right? I mean my extended family, you know, now that, that one time my nuclear, but now extended I'd feel love. But I think I feel love when I'm in the space with my family and we are just there watching a television show or just, you know, just being together, man. I think I feel they got filled. I could see that they're happy. And, and that I feel that they know that part of that happiness [01:04:00] is based upon what I'm bringing to the family. And I feel, I feel love, man.

Speaker 2: Awesome. This is my second to last question. And I stole it from somebody else. 10, 10 fair. Tim Ferris asks this question. Um, so it's called the billboard question. You've got, you've got a billboard on the side of the highway and all the dads are driving by it at a hundred miles an hour. You get to, they gotta be able to read the message that mark Winkler puts [01:04:30] on the billboard. What's the advice you give to all parents? All five.

Speaker 3: Oh wow. That's a good one. Let me see. Um, geez man. They were driving him by, I would say be the best you, I don't know.

Speaker 2: That's great. I love that. So I had a lot, a lot. I'm going to jam one more question in before the last one. I love this question. Money's no object. Time. Time is no object. Whatever [01:05:00] you can give a gift to every father on the planet. What gift would you give to them?

Speaker 3: Wow. I would say I would give them something that I want to do. I would give them a trailer, a beautiful trailer home so they can spend one whole summer or six months just driving around the country, this them and their child. And they're married their, their, their spouse and just experience life, man and different cultures, different [01:05:30] food, and just have uninterrupted moments of family. Man, I would give that

Speaker 2: Wonderful. I would like that gift. So here, here's my last question. But first, uh, first I want you to tell me where people can find you on Instagram, on the internet, everywhere your book, plug, plug yourself.

Speaker 3: There you go. Shameless plug moment. They can find me on Instagram at, at, uh, fatherhood circle at five underscore [01:06:00] circle. They can find me on Facebook at, um, my daughter's keeper at the book they can find me on my website is, uh, mark R The name of the book is my daughter's keeper. It will be coming out June 13th so they can find that online. We gotta be looking at getting into some bookstores, but we're first going to start on the online platform. And, uh, they can find my

Speaker 2: [01:06:30] And that's always looking for donations for the benefit of these thousands of kids that you're there, you're impacting. Uh, so I hope people will give, uh,

Speaker 3: Thank you.

Speaker 2: Thank you. My last question to you, mark is in the event, this recording lasts for generations to come. What is a message that you would like to give your kids, their kids, their kids, their kids to survive forever,

Speaker 3: [01:07:00] That you should do whatever you can to get the most enjoyment out of life, but not in a selfish way, and to get the most love that you can. And to when you walk into a space, try your best to leave that space better than when you entered that space. Do your best to do that.

Speaker 2: Mark Winkler, thank you so much for coming on, [01:07:30] man. I appreciate you so much. I learned so much and I'm just grateful for your time and experiences and your sharing.

Speaker 3: Thank you, Todd. I thank you for this opportunity, man. It was great. I enjoyed talking with you.

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